Rabbi Tovia Singer and Reverend Jim Cantelon Debate

 

In a television studio, two well known spiritual leaders - A rabbi and a minister - squared off in a spectacular televised debate.

The Eternal Consequences of Idol Worship

The Eternal Consequences of Idol Worship

I have been told that if I don't believe in Jesus as my savior I am going  straight to Hell after I die. This seems like a compelling reason for me to believe in Jesus particularly since I have also been told that there is no consequence within Judaism if I believe in Jesus. Therefore, I have nothing to lose by believing in Jesus, so why shouldn't I believe in him as my savior?  

Answer: Actually, belief in Jesus is a horrendous sin with grave consequences for any Jew who professes to do so. To understand this let us look at the tragic apostasy of the  Northern Kingdom of Israel and its dominant tribe, Ephraim. God, speaking through the  prophet Hosea declares, "When Ephraim spoke with trembling, he became exalted in  Israel; but when he became guilty through Baal, he died" (Hosea 13:1). When they served  God, Ephraim was "exalted," but when they became guilty of idol worship and remained  unrepentant despite prophetic warnings to cease their sinful ways they signed their own  death warrant. Ephraim died a spiritual death long before it suffered national destruction.
From the prophetic message we learn that apostates, even during their lifetime are  reckoned as dead as long as they remain unrepentant. The prophet not only denounces  belief in molten images fashioned by craftsmen, but also those who trust in a false savior- god: "And I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt, and gods beside Me you  should not know, and there is no savior but Me" (Hosea 13:4).

God desires the apostate's repentance and beckons him/her to renounce iniquity: "From  the clutches of the grave I would ransom them, from death I would redeem them, I will  be your words of death; I will decree the grave upon you. Remorse shall be hidden from  My eyes" (Hosea 13:14).

For the apostate who does not repent, God says, "I will decree the grave upon you." In a  more literal sense, "I will be the cause of your being cut off to the grave." Katavcha, from  the verb ketev, denotes "cutting" (e.g. Psalms 91:6). Its primary meaning is "to cut," but  in Hosea 13:14, ketev takes on the secondary meaning "decree." In Hebrew, the primary  word for decree is gezayra, the root of which is gezer, "to cut." There are a number of  word roots in Hebrew whose primary meaning is "cutting," yet have a secondary meaning  of a final, permanent decision or ruling (e.g., pasak, chakak, gezer, charatz, karat).

As we see, the belief in the false savior-god Jesus is a grave sin. The unrepentant apostate  is not only shunned and considered dead by the Jewish community. God Himself  considers the unrepentant apostate as spiritually dead in this life and in physical death the apostate is all the more so "cut off."
Source:  Jewsforjudaism.

THEY WILL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY PIERCED? FULFILLED OR UNFULFILLED?

You'll rarely see a Christian Missionary who will use the entire chapter of Zechariah 12 when witnessing to a Jew in the process of conversion. In fact you will rarely see a Christian who quotes from Zechariah 12 familiar with the events of the whole chapter. Usually only chapter 12:10 will be used as way of quotation by Christians in order to “proof text” their point. Let us investigate if such “proof-texting” leads us to the truths God desires we have from the original message of Zechariah.
Let us look at the passage from a Christian KJV Bible:

Zechariah 12

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
There are two major problems facing the Christian who quotes from this chapter in his Christian Bible:

• He does not the accurate Hebrew translation
• Rarely, if ever, the Christian is even familiar with the rest of the chapter or the context from which this verse is taken. I used to be like that. I used to cut a verse out of its context and use it to prove whatever I wanted. As I matured I learned that this is not the way of truth but the way of error. I hear Christians continually allude to “they will look upon me whom they have pierced” and let that be the only part of the chapter they will deal with. Such overlooks the context which tells a different story from what they suppose.

Let us familiarize ourself with the context.
Again as taken from the Christian Old Testament (KJV)

Zech 12:1-1

1. The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13. 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14. 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

First of all we must recognize that there is nothing in this chapter that tells us we are even speaking about the Messiah. Nothing in the context tells us we are dealing with the Messiah. So the Christian’s claim is that this passage is a reference to Yeshua is very week.

HOW DO CHRISTIANS READ THIS VERSE

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Answer for yourself: Who is the first “they”? The Christians say that “they” refer to the Jewish people.
Answer for yourself: Who is the “me” here? The Christians say that “me” refers to Yeshua who is God according to Christian theology.
Answer for yourself: Who is the second “they”? Christians tell us that this refers to: the Romans who crucified Yeshua.
Answer for yourself: Who is speaking here? Christians would tell you that God is speaking through Yeshua.
Answer for yourself: Who is the “him” for whom they mourn? Christians tell us that Jews will realize that they crucified Yeshua the Messiah and when they realize this they will mourn for their actions.
Answer for yourself: Is that what is going on here?
The difficulty in this verse is that we have two different pronouns. We have two different people involved in this passage. This presents a problem for Christians who try to read this verse Christologically.
Answer for yourself: Who is the “me” and who is the “him”?

LOOK AT WHAT THE WRITER OF THE GOSPEL OF JOHN DOES TO THIS VERSE FROM ZECHARIAH THROUGH MISQUOTING IT

John 19:31-37

• 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
• 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
• 33 But when they came to Yeshua, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
• 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
• 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
• 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
• 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (KJV)

John has assured us that another Jewish Scripture said that “they shall look on him whom they pierced.”
Answer for yourself: Is there anywhere a Jewish Scripture that says that? No!

COMPARING ZECH. 12:10 FROM THE JEWISH HEBREW BIBLE WITH THE CHRISTIAN OLD TESTAMENT...YOU WILL BE AMAZED AT WHAT YOU SEE

If you compare Zechariah in your Christian Bible with the Hebrew Zechariah in the Jewish Bible you will find that the Prophet Zechariah in the Jewish Bible says “they will look upon ME and mourn for HIM.”
The following is taken from p. 1423 in the Stone Edition Tanakh which I have found to be the best available translation of the Jewish Scriptures that we can find today for the non-Hebrew speaking student. This great translation has the Hebrew on opposite pages and let me remind you that this is the "text" that was verified in the Qumran and Dead Sea discoveries to be substantially unchanged from the only copies known previously that dated from 900-1000 A.D. That being the case it was always assumed up to then that the Jews had "deJesusized" their Old Testament to write Jesus or any related prophecies out of their texts. The Qumran discovery proves that the older texts of these Jewish Scriptures read completely different from the LXX (Greek translation) in many places are even older than the assumed Septuagint standard. Evidently it was not the Greek which is the standard now but the Jewish Scriptures. This is of major importance for the Christian and follower of Jesus because many of the Old Testament passages can now be proven to not have been "deJesusized" by the Jews but rather "Jesusized" by those who not only translated the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek but who later altered them and "Christianized" them. Understand that the Greek translation was not in reality designed to read Jesus into the texts but write in the solar myths of the Essene cosmic angel-Messiah. It just so happens that much of the Jesus story in the New Testament will be later modeled on this same Essene pattern. We find this "Essene Theology" in the alterations of the above verses as you can see for yourself as you now read the Hebrew Scripture from Zech 12:10 for yourself. Understand that the following is what Zechariah actually said and the above examples from the Christian Old Testaments are the "corrupted" versions.

10. I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitant of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. They will look toward Me because of those whom they have stabbed; they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only [child[, and be embittered over him like the embitterment over a [deceased] firstborn.

A few things we must notice. In this final war the enemies of God and Israel will battle the Jewish people. The Rabbis tell us that God's salvation of Israel in that day will be so complete that people will be astonished if even one man [Jew] is killed by the enemy (Radak). In the above Hebrew verse we find that in this battle the Jewish people will look toward YHVH and even if one of their people is killed then they (the Jews) will look toward YHVH and mourn for "those" [their own people] whom "they" [the enemy that they are fighting] have "stabbed" [killed].
Notice that Zechariah does not say that they will look upon HIM whom they pierced but rather they (the Jews) will look upon ME (God) and mourn for him. The quote in the New Testament is completely wrong! The Hebrew of Zechariah teaches us that the looking will be directed toward God. The writer of the Gospel of John changes the pronoun and the whole meaning of the verse! Zechariah has two different people because the original prophet understood the difference between the two different pronouns. John changes it and says “look upon him whom they have pierced” (making the two different pronouns the same).

This is a blatant and purposeful misquotation of the prophet Zechariah. The Essene translators of the Prophets in Alexandria, Egypt were wrong! The writer of the Gospel of John is wrong in his quote as well? Where is the truth?

In the Hebrew there is a clue in this verse that makes all the difference. Instead of looking upon the one pierced the correct Hebrew states that the Jewish people will look toward God concerning the “him” who is pierced. If you read our series on Isaiah 53 you will have learned that quite often the prophets referred to the corporate nation of Israel in the “singular” by using pronouns like him, he, etc. In keeping with such a literary device we again see the Jewish people are said by the prophet Zechariah to be looking toward God concerning those of their brothers who perished in the final battle after being killed by the non-Jewish nations.

The Hebrew, when taken from the Hebrew Bible (not a Christian Old Testament), reads different from the English Old Testaments in the Christian Bible: “They (Jews) will look to me (God)……concerning whom (the Jewish slain) they (Gentile armies) have pierced…….

This is a major difference than what John reports. John quotes as if they are looking upon “him” who they pierced. John sees the two pronouns merged into one individual. They look toward who they pierced. The Hebrew from which he supposedly quoted does not say that. Instead of the Jewish people looking on the one pierced, they are looking toward God concerning those of their countrymen who were killed by the Gentile armies. To believe John’s misquote is wrong for the reading from John 19 is not what the Hebrew says!
Answer for yourself: Why can't John quote the Hebrew of Zechariah correctly?
Answer for yourself: But more to the point, why does not the Old Testament of our Christian Bibles have it correct?
Answer for yourself: Who is responsible for misquoting the Hebrew of Zechariah in our Christian KJV Bibles?
Remember John is supposed to be a Jew and well familiar with his own Jewish Scriptures. Such a one would not make such a gross mistake in mistranslating his own Scriptures. Certainly if John were a Jew he would be most familiar with the ultimate warning as follows:
Deut 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (KJV)
Exod 32:33
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (KJV)
Knowing these two Jewish Scriptures, and expecting John to know then as well, then I have always struggled to understand why a Jew cannot or would not quote his own Scripture correctly.
Answer for yourself: Don’t you find that troubling as well?

IN HEBREW THE "ONE WHO IS PIERCED" IS NOT THE LONE LOOKED TO!

God is saying that they will look to ME (God) concerning the one who is pierced.
If we remember the context is the final battle of all the Gentile nations against the Jews in Jerusalem, then the one who is pierced is the Jewish people who fight in this battle. Never let us forget the context for when a passage is removed from its context then the private agendas of the ones who remove the passage become the new interpretation.
John 19 is describing the crucifixion and not the final battle against the Jews in Jerusalem. Only by ignorance of the context from which the verse is taken that John quotes, or only by disregarding the context can the writer of the Gospel of John hope to have those who read his letter agree with his theology.
John 19:31-37
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Crucifixion, as a means of death, always took a long time for a person to die. Breaking the legs was common because their chest cavity would depress their diaphragm whereby they could not breath and die quickly, otherwise, they could linger alive on the cross for several days. Once their legs were broken they could not support themselves and die quickly. The Sabbath was coming and the crucified needed to die quickly in order to be taken off the cross before the Sabbath.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
This is not a prophecy regardless of what Christians say. We are asked to believe the crucifixion was prophesied previously since “no bones could be broken.” The paschal sacrifice was never crucified. It was a law that the bones of the lamb could not be broken but this is only a law and not ever intended to be a prophecy of a man who would come later and die through crucifixion. Such is taking great liberty with the verse. Not breaking the legs of a man who was being crucified has nothing to do with the preparation of the lamb at Passover. To draw such a conclusion is very strained to say the least. No where does the Jewish Scriptures say that the Messiah would have his limbs not broken.
John would write in 19:34 “But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.” The writer of the Gospel of John makes an occasion for such a fulfillment by the misquotation of Zechariah 12 as I have already alluded to previously. John would say “they will look upon him whom their pierced.” This is the reason Yeshua had to be pierced by a Roman sword. According to John Zechariah 12 was fulfilled in the first century in Yeshua. If this is so then we are expected to believe that the Romans looked upon Yeshua whom they pierced and they mourned for him.
Answer for yourself: When did the Romans mourn for a crucified Yeshua?
Zechariah 12:10 is not a chapter speaking of events happening 2000 years ago regardless of what John says. Zechariah 12 is clearly an end-time prophecy which has not taken place yet and remains for fulfillment in the end-times.
Zech 12:1-14

• 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
• 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
• 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Many feel that this is happening in our day as our newspapers testify. It is speaking of a time in the future when the whole world will come against Jerusalem. It surely did not happen in Yeshua’ day.

• 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
• 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
• 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
• 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
• 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
• 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

So we see that we are speaking about an end-time battle. When the whole world comes up to Jerusalem God will destroy the armies of the world and save the Jewish people. It will be in this time of battle and war that verse 10 of Zechariah 12 will be fulfilled.

• 10 And I will pour upon the house of David (at this time of battle against the world’s armies) and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they [the Jewish people] shall look upon me [God] concerning whom they (their enemies) have pierced, and they shall mourn for him (those Jews killed in the battle), as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The Jews will be upset because of their brothers killed in this end-time battle. The Jews will look to God concerning those people whom were killed that they loved...their families

THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO UNDERSTAND THIS HEBREW VERSE

In this battle against Jerusalem there will be only one casualty and the Jews will look to God because of this one person who is killed.
As we saw in Isaiah 53 the Jewish nations is repeatedly referred to as one entity. All the people who fell in battle is described as a “him” (in the singular). According to the Talmud this verse is referring to one who is the Messiah (a great Jewish leader), one who is the son of Joseph (from the family of Joseph and not David). The Talmud speaks of the death of this great leader who will fall in battle before the coming of the Messiah from David. Such a great leaders’ death will influence Israel’s repentance prior to the coming of the Messiah.
Answer for yourself: Has their ever been a battle where only one Jewish leader died? Did Jesus die in a battle and we not know about it?
In the rescue at Entebbe Johnathan Yethinauhau was the only one picked off by a sharpshooter. He was a very charismatic leader.
At the death of this great leader the nation is in shock and the purpose of this tragedy is to bring Israel closer to God before the coming of Messiah. This did not happen to Yeshua because he did not fall in battle. In the life of Yeshua Jerusalem was not saved. It was destroyed 40 years later.

• 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Some other event happened that Zechariah is comparing to.
Answer for yourself: To which event does Zechariah allude?
One of the most righteous and beloved Jewish kings was King Josiah who fell in battle.
2 Chr 35:22-25

• 22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo.
• 23 And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.
• 24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchers of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.
• 25 And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations. (KJV)

So here the book of Zechariah is making an illusion to the death of another great leader.
II Ki 23:28-30

• 28 Now the rest of the acts of Josiah, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
• 29 In his days Pharaoh-nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.
• 30 And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead. (KJV)

So, if we return to the Hebrew and discard the misquotation of the verse in the New Testament or even in our Christian Old Testament, and rely on the Jewish Scriptures (from which accurate translation was to always be made), then we find that after the end-time battle of Jerusalem the Jewish survivors will look toward God concerning their slain bothers who fell in battle which had been killed by the non-Jewish armies in this battle. The Jewish people will be looking toward God concerning those who were killed (pierced) and not looking on the pierced. Such is a blatant misuse of the Jewish Scripture, and unless you look this closely, you will never have known this gross adulteration of the Word of God as foisted upon unsuspecting Christians. Shalom.

Source: http://paulproblem.faithweb.com/zech1210.htm